What If Dependence Is Not Weakness But Reality

We explore interdependence as a grounded practice of collective care, not a feel-good idea, and we name how it reshapes the way we do relationships. We unpack the responsibilities that come with being connected, including conflict, repair, and showing up for each other through the hard parts of being human.

• interdependence as “hanging between” and living among each other 
• dependence as a spectrum, including healthy dependence and codependency 
• interconnection beyond human relationships, including our reliance on the earth 
• what interdependence asks of us, including growth, honesty and impact awareness 
• rupture and repair as a relationship skill, including receiving support and co-regulation 
• messy edges of truth-telling, tone and aftercare, plus the value of relational rigor 
• identity, privilege and oppression shaping how impact is felt in relationships 
• liberation and resilience through mutual aid, community networks and responsibility 
• nature as teacher, including mycelium networks and the “wood wide web” 

And please remember to share and subscribe to our podcast so that we land in your inbox every time we drop a new episode. Sign up for those notifications. Leave us comments and talk in the chat.

Thanks for listening, 

Tolu & Gitika 

You can reach us at kinnected.squarespace.com

Tolu is the Founder of Re-member Counseling & Gitika is the Founder of Pranh Healing & Wellness 

Transcript

Welcome And Host Check-In

Tolu 0:00

Welcome to Connected, the podcast that centers collective care and relationships that outlast Empire. We are your hosts, Tolu and Gitika, two licensed mental health professionals in the so-called United States. So I figured we can take turns. Oh, Gitika, how are you doing?

Gitika 0:22

I'm well. I've been strength training. So it's been really exciting because strong is the new skinny. And so yeah, so my body is like in this recovery mode right now. So I'm doing well. I'm feeling happy that I got my workout in.

Tolu 0:42

I love that.

Gitika 0:44

How about you? How are you doing, Tolu?

Tolu 0:46

Yeah, I'm doing pretty well. We had one last moment of winter here in Texas. So it dropped a bit. I didn't anticipate that. And I was, oh my gosh. Okay. But I think spring is just around the corner. I believe it's next week, actually.

Speaker 1:02

Oh.

Tolu 1:03

So just really been enjoying the sun being out longer.

Speaker 1:08

Yeah.

Tolu 1:09

Just lifts your mood when the sun's out. So yeah, I've really been in more positive spirits lately and just taking it one day at a time, honestly.

Speaker 1:20

So yeah, I hear you.

Tolu 1:24

So for today, I've been thinking about interdependence and just curious about this concept of interdependence and wanting to explore it with you today.

Speaker 1:35

Okay.

Tolu 1:35

A word that I feel I've gotten more familiar with in the past like five years.

Why Interdependence Now

Tolu 1:40

It was only a word I heard growing up. But now I'm seeing it thanks to social media, right? And more of these ideas around relationships, right? Because the basis of our podcast is relationships, right? And interdependence is a cousin of relationships, I imagine. So I wanted to explore it more with you today. And I've lately have actually really been into what is the etymology of certain words. So what does this word mean? Where is it derived from? What's the history behind it? And I recently looked up what the literal meaning of interdependence meant. So literally it means to hang

The Word Origin And Meaning

Tolu 2:20

between or suspend it between, right? So it comes from the Latin prefix word. So the beginning of it means between, among, or in the midst of, right? And then dependence, the noun, right, from the Latin dependre, de means from pendre to hang. Right. So there's being in the midst of, hanging between, there's noticing that they all are interrelated, these parts.

Speaker 2:53

Yes.

Tolu 2:54

So I've been really interested in interdependence because I really believe it is a it's a part of the idea of what does it mean to be collective care, to embody collective care? Yeah. Um, embody community and interpend interdependence. Interdependence is, I think, foundational to collective care and to this collectivistic future that I think is gonna be really vital for us in like outlasting empire. Right. So my first question is what does interdependence mean to you?

Gitika 3:28

Yeah, I think I'm thinking about how much when we're thinking about relationship, also we tend to, I think in my mind, I tend to go to human

Defining Interdependence Beyond Humans

Gitika 3:40

relationship. And then I realized in in human relationships, interdependence, I've heard people get really tripped up on the word dependence, not liking that. This whole idea of depending on another human feels hard, though I think we depend on the earth all the time. We do depend on each other, but I don't think we'll talk about it. Just I I often give that example, right? I wouldn't have food on my table if not for the farmer who works in the fields. I am dependent on that farmer. Do I acknowledge it every day? I don't know. But so I feel interdependence is at the heart of it, acknowledging we need each other, human to human. And interdependence is also acknowledging that we can't be. So if people trip up on the word dependence, I'm okay. So how about interconnection? Is that okay? Because that's true too. So I think for me, interdependence is that that we always need each other, we are connected to each other. I am because you are, you are because I am. We can't be without each other. And I know there are so many other ancient wisdom texts that talk about this idea, right? I think you and I have spoken about Ubanthu and I am because you are. So to me, in interdependence is also acknowledging that truth. So yeah.

Speaker 5:31

Absolutely.

Gitika 5:32

Yeah, I wonder what it's for you, interdependence, when you first started thinking about it. What was it like for you?

Tolu 5:39

It was illuminating. It's oh, that makes sense, right? And seeing the world through that lens of interdependence, right? I cognitively understood it, but from a somatic embodied place, I think it's taken me time to get there, right? And interdependence is such a beautiful word, such a beautiful concept, right? There's, I mean, indigenous cultures have understood this from the beginning of time, right? And I think there is so much strength in that concept because it really values the whole, right? There is it removes kind of hierarchy, right? And we've been, unless living in the West, right? We are taught I don't want to be dependent, I don't want to X, Y, Z you, right? But also to it's a spectrum, right? Dependence is a spectrum, right? There's healthy dependence and there's toxic codependency, right? Identity comes from you, right? Versus your perception of me informs who I am, right? Those are two different things, right? So interpendence, I believe, has a lot of beauty in it, but also to there's a responsibility, I believe, with understanding interdependence. And that leads me into my next question,

Healthy Dependence Versus Codependency

Tolu 7:05

right? What does interdependence ask of us?

Gitika 7:09

Yeah, I feel it asks for us to be who we are in with our most wholesome potential. Because I'm thinking about what you named about codependency as well, right? That codependency relies so much on my identity is drawn from your identity, and that's very different from you and I nourish each other and create conditions for each other to grow. So I see interdependence as a place where people can keep growing and being their own best selves as well. And it does ask for us to recognize we need to do our own work, keep growing, keep understanding ourselves and ensuring that when we are connecting with each other, we are able to do that somewhere with an understanding of the impact that we are constantly having on each other. So it's not meant to draw anxiety, it's meant to draw care. So, how can we recognize the impact that we have on each other and then meet each other knowing that what we say and do matters? So I do think it does call for us to continue to grow and be honest with ourselves and each other. I think it also calls for us to be open to having difficult conversations, speaking and listening, both. But deepening our skills for difficult conversations as well. Because I don't think interdependence is just sweet, it's not only tender, it has its difficult paths. So, how do we build the skills to be grow from those difficult experiences as well? I think that's important. Learning how to deal with conflict is an important part of interdependence.

Tolu 9:18

Absolutely. I'm thinking about too how as you're talking about there being ruptures, right? And interdependence asks us to have, ask us to have capacity for rupture and repair. Right? That's a part of interdependency, is being able to work through the ruptures, be able to move towards repair and know that the rupture is bound to happen again, right? It's gonna be seasons where in relationships the other is giving 60 and we're only able to come up with 40%, or vice versa, or 70-30. So interdependence asks us to be okay with receiving,

What Interdependence Asks Of Us

Tolu 9:55

right? And being okay with giving too, right? And also recognizing our limitations, right? I think to be interdependent is to be okay with not always being fully integrated, right? And needing that support because we do it's co-regulation, right? Sometimes we need co-regulation, even if you're a big adult, right? Got a big job, all these things, right? Sometimes we in our nervous system state we need that extra support from another human being, another nervous system, nervous system to regulate us. Now, obviously, I'm not saying to make that the norm, not always what you do to work through things, but sometimes we need support. I think about when somebody has passed away recently in cultures and collectivistic culture, the whole communal gathering of coming together and supporting that family and all the rituals that come with that, right? It's only in the West that we almost shame people for grieving too much, right? So I'm thinking about how interdependence is there to hold us when we can't hold ourselves, yeah.

Speaker 11:04

Yeah, it's asking for us to show up, show up for each other, yeah, yeah.

Tolu 11:12

And that brings up for me what are the messy parts and the beautiful parts of independence, because you said it's not always tender, it's not always bursts and sunshines, right? A lot there are there is messiness, there is inconvenience, there is difficultness, tension around interdependence, too, right? So right, and then there's the beauty of it as well, too. Um, if you could mention either one or name one thing that's beautiful, one thing that is potentially messy, or a few things that is potentially messy about interdependence, what comes up for you around that?

Gitika 11:50

Yeah, I think what's really messy for me is, and I'm constantly working through this myself, the tension between showing up as raw and showing up as completely indifferent to the relational impact of what you're saying and how you're saying it. So I'm cautious about not sounding I'm saying we need to police our tones because I think that is it's a very tiresome expectation to I I don't have a problem with what you said, but I don't the way you said it. I think I have problems sometimes with that kind of feedback, but that's about the tension between showing up as raw and honest versus raw and

Rupture Repair And Co-Regulation

Gitika 12:50

dismissive of relational impact. So I think what gets ugly for me, if I could use that word, what gets ugly for me is when you want to express yourself, but not really be there for the aftercare. And that's why I think maybe related to that is what I think the joy of interdependence can be. It can be a commitment to relational rigor. I remember the supervisor who would introduce that phrase into our conversation once when I was speaking about a challenge that I was experiencing as a therapist, and she named how much I value relational rigor, that there are times that I can be disappointed in my relationships that are outside therapy, because that willingness to dive deep into discussing the impact of relationship doesn't come up in our everyday ways of being. We are so busy, we are so there's just so much drawing our attention that the time and space relationships can require, we don't necessarily have, or we don't make that time. So the beautiful parts of interdependence is acknowledging that our relationships matter. And so when I show up as raw, I also care about how we can continue to listen and connect with each other. So if I was saying something, I would want the other person to listen. And I also would want that other person to stay in relationship by naming how what I said impacted them. That okay, this was helpful feedback, and it was really hurtful for me when you use that XYZ phrase because that doesn't sound my truth. It sounds like you misread me there and I was hurt by that. So, how do we keep talking about our relationships? I think it becomes challenging when we are speaking, I'm especially thinking about mixed race relationships, or when you're of different races, or if you're of different different identities that have unique experiences of privilege and oppression. I do think sometimes our respective positions can make it really hard for us to completely understand the impact that we are having on each other. So that process of actually listening and finding ways to continue to care while we bump up against each other. I think that's the beauty of recognizing our true interdependence. Neither of us comes fully formed, fully knowledgeable, fully informed about each other's histories. But how do we learn and build on that by speaking to each other? So yeah, I'd say the ugly parts are when we think we shouldn't have to. Yeah, yeah.

Tolu 16:16

I think that also too when it comes to the messy parts of interdependence, right? Managing disappointment, right? And building capacity for that

Messy Parts And Relational Rigor

Tolu 16:30

being a thing that will eventually come, right? That disappointment, right? Maybe feelings of rejection, all of those things, even though that may be the other party's intention. Yeah. It's still you can't not help but feel that way, even if that wasn't their intention, how they said it to you, or what they said to you, right? And also, too, I think with the other side of it, the beautiful parts of interdependency is that it builds our capacity for resilience. Yes, in a way that's data to sustain us in this fight for liberation, right? So build networks that aren't reliant on these big systems that we live within, right? Yeah. So that's a lot of space for creating new worlds, world building, right? And imagine look to create our own resources, not reliant and dependent on these systems in which we live in as well. Yes, and always have somebody there you when there's an emergency or when you need some butter, when you need a ride somewhere, like feeling like I know I have a list of people that are in my community that I can call upon, and I know that they will show up when they've bought into this idea of interdependence. Yes. Last one, yeah. What is interdependence inviting us into?

Gitika 17:51

I wonder if it's inviting us into yeah, it's interesting as sitting with this question that I've thought about so many times, but after everything we've just talked about, it's making me think that interdependence is at the heart of it, inviting us into recognizing that each of us matters in this fight for liberation. And uh I remember a colleague of mine who used to run groups. I don't know if I've shared this before. So if folks are listening and you've heard the story before, my apologies. But then again, repetition makes perfect uh make repetition helps you learn. So but I remembered a colleague of mine who used to run groups, used to tell group members to please inform everyone if you're going to be missing the following week. Because when you're missing, like you know, people wonder about you. So at the heart of it, and then he said, act like you matter. Because when you're in the group, it matters, when you're not in the group, it matters. So inform people when you won't be there. And I think that's one thing that interdependence is actually at the heart of it, inviting us to recognize each of us matters. So know what your work is. It is to build the capacity to listen, it's to build your expand your window of tolerance so that when someone shares their truth, you don't rush to close your ears because you're like, I can't deal with it. No, we'll have to deal with it. This is happening, it's there. And there's somewhere connected. But I few months ago took this, made this commitment that I would make it a point to receive news in relationship. So if I was instead of scrolling constantly to look for news, I would get news from some very specific sources. And the rest of the time I made it a point that I would receive news in relationship. Because there were a lot of people I knew who were from places all over the world, included, including in the land that is now called the United States, whose news never made it to the papers. But it was such important news, whether it was malnourishment in communities, whether it was lands that are drowning because oceans are rising, or whether it was countries that have been going through war for generations and they don't make the headlines anymore. So I started realizing that I needed to make space in my heart for these stories. And I realized that the interconnection was coming from this constant reality check about what is going on, and we need each other to truly

Liberation Responsibility And Receiving News Together

Gitika 21:00

understand how to show up for each other no matter what happens, how to continue to show up with an open heart. So I think somewhere interdependence is inviting us into acknowledging the truth with each other. Yeah.

Tolu 21:21

That landed in my body in a place that's it's inviting us to take responsibility, right? To be one another's keeper.

Speaker 21:31

Yeah.

Tolu 21:32

It's asking us, inviting us to build capacity to be with the hard parts of the human experience.

Speaker 21:38

Yeah.

Tolu 21:40

Right. Because that is inevitable to happen to everyone on this earth. Nobody makes it out alive. Right. Yeah, true. So it's asking us can we build capacity to witness one another even in the most difficult times? Right? Take responsibility. Yeah.

unknown 22:01

Yeah.

Tolu 22:02

Taking responsibility because when we can show up for our community, right, and create better conditions for the community in which we exist then and live amongst, that will obviously come back and benefit us too, right? So I'm just thinking about interdependence and how it's just not this idea, but it literally exists in nature, right? And I think about the mycelium networks, I think they call it the wood wide web. But the tree system, the root system, right? Yeah. And how each trees take responsibility for one another, right? In a sense, they're each other's keeper. Trees are. Look up the mycelium, mycelium network, if you're unfamiliar with that. Listeners, I don't because I don't have much enough time to go into that. But this concept isn't anything new, right? This is how the universe, how the earth works. Yes. And in relation to one another, right? So it's a good place to land, Gitoka. What do you think?

Gitika 23:03

Absolutely, absolutely. Thinking so much also about how in future episodes we can talk more about our relationship with other beings across the earth. Because I think humans, we tend to talk a lot about human relationship. I keep thinking about orcas for some reason. Orcas keep coming to mind. Our relationship with can Elder, I know, says, What's our relationship with the beings with wings and the beings in the water and the beings in the sky? So also thinking about our relationship with all those beings, and I look forward to talking more about that with you and through this podcast.

Speaker 23:50

Yes, absolutely.

Gitika 23:53

That feels a great place to land. Pause for now.

Tolu 23:57

Yes. Well, thank you all for listening. And until next time, Tolu signing off.

Gitika 24:04

Yes, and Gitika signing off. And please remember to share and subscribe to our podcast so that we land in your inbox every time we drop a new episode.

Tolu 24:16

Yeah, sign up for those notifications. Leave us comments and talk in the chat. Awesome.

Gitika 24:22

Bye, everyone. Bye.